| Viper359 | Viper359 to JTDavis Premium Member 2024-Aug-2 1:14 pm Re: Electric vehicle pricing - will there be a large used market?Isn't it amazing how many people talk about the quality of the lightning while never being in one let alone drive one. I had one for a 2 week to help decide. It handled like a truck. Drove like a truck. It also has a rear end suspension like the Rams that the regular F-150 doesn't have. Driving this truck several thousand kilometers, I easily felt the vehicle would last several hundred kilometers with regular truck parts breaking like front ends et. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-2 1:14 pm · | |
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GreenEnvy22 to AR Member 2024-Aug-2 5:46 pm That super high mileage Tesla model s is now past 2 million km. »www.notateslaapp.com/new ··· lometers Some battery stats: 2. The second battery lasted 670,000 km (416k miles), before being replaced due to cell in-balance – it had suffered only a 20% loss of range 3. The third battery lasted for 550,000 km (341k miles) 4. The vehicle is currently on its fourth battery, which has already clocked 250,000 km (155k miles), but remains going strong |
· actions · 2024-Aug-2 5:46 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-2 5:48 pm What were the costs of those replacement batteries? Covered by warranty? |
· actions · 2024-Aug-2 5:48 pm · | |
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Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-2 6:33 pm What were the costs of those replacement batteries? Covered by warranty? Would it really matter? As long as they were less than the cost of an entire new car, each set last as long as or longer than any normal car on the road today. You could put $50,000 into a Audi A6 that has 500,000km on it and you might or might not get another 500,000 km out of it - in this case they've done that 3 times and the car is still going. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-2 6:33 pm · | |
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AR to GreenEnvy22 2024-Aug-2 6:51 pm That super high mileage Tesla model s is now past 2 million km. »www.notateslaapp.com/new ··· lometers Some battery stats: 2. The second battery lasted 670,000 km (416k miles), before being replaced due to cell in-balance – it had suffered only a 20% loss of range 3. The third battery lasted for 550,000 km (341k miles) 4. The vehicle is currently on its fourth battery, which has already clocked 250,000 km (155k miles), but remains going strong 1. So first one changed when vehicle odometer was 290k km, second odometer reading 960k km and finally third battery when odometer reading was 1.5M km? Basically three batteries over about 900k miles? 2. Cost data for the three batteries would be interesting..... |
· actions · 2024-Aug-2 6:51 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 to Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-2 6:56 pm Yes it would matter. I wouldn't drop a new $15k engine or transmission into a vehicle with 300k on it. |
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Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 9:17 am Yes it would matter. I wouldn't drop a new $15k engine or transmission into a vehicle with 300k on it. Exactly - because you wouldn't expect to get another 300,000km out of it right? (I mean it would be silly not to if you knew you would - you can't buy a new car for $15,000 and get 300,000km out of it?) But in this case they did that 3 times and got 2 million km out of it. - so even if it cost 75% the price of a new car, each time they got the use of an entire new car out of it. Their cost per km of ownership dropped every time they bought a new battery - assume each battery was $40,000. They bought the car for $100,000. They have $220,000 in between car and battery for 2 million km - that's 11c/km. At the end of the original battery they were around 33c/km, at the end of the first replacement they were around 20c/km, by the end of the second replacement they were down to 15c/km and by now they are down to 11. Even at $50,000 for a replacement battery they would be lowering their cost per km. That's why I said it didn't matter. You could put that $15,000 engine into a 300,000km Honda accord but next year it'll be a transmission, two years later it needs a new cooling system, 2 years later something else, etc - and you would be exceedingly lucky if for less than the price of an entire new Accord in parts and repairs you keep it going another entire 300,000km... In this case they just keep putting in new batteries and just keep going. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 9:17 am · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 9:30 am Yeah I wouldn't be doing any of that with a vehicle that has 300k on it. |
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Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 11:29 am Yeah I wouldn't be doing any of that with a vehicle that has 300k on it. And yet here they are swapping a battery into a car with 1,500,000km on it and driving it another 500,000km. I think that says a lot to the simplicity of the mechanics of an EV over an ICE car - swap some batteries, keep changing tires, some regular maintenance on suspension, and it keeps going. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 11:29 am · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 11:32 am Yeah again, how much are those battery swaps |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 11:32 am · | |
| AsherN | AsherN Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 3:40 pm Yeah again, how much are those battery swaps Cheaper than a new car. |
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Hydraglass to Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 3:41 pm Yeah again, how much are those battery swaps You're really not following are you? It literally doesn't matter as long as they are less than an entire new car - which I can guarantee they are under $60,000 each - are they $30,000? $37,555? $43,129? It'll depend on where and when - the point is they are giving you the value of an entire new car - 500,000km of driving each - for whatever they cost. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 3:41 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 6:33 pm You seem to think everyone has 35k sitting around to buy a new battery pack. It still doesn't change everything on the vehicle has 300,000 worth of wear and tear. A new engine in a similar sized car is 8k to 15k |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 6:33 pm · | |
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Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 6:35 pm You seem to think everyone has 35k sitting around to buy a new battery pack. It still doesn't change everything on the vehicle has 300,000 worth of wear and tear. A new engine in a similar sized car is 8k to 15k Would you spend $35,000 to go 500,000km? That's all you really need to ask. It's cheaper than any new or used car out there on a cost per km basis. The point is, the rest of the car is good to go for millions of km - literally - it's over 2 million. How many ice cars even with half a dozen replacement engines in them could say or do that? |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 6:35 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 6:41 pm If the rest of the vehicle holds up, maybe, maybe not. 10 years of a Toronto winter, who can't go a day without salting the roads, I probably would not. A model 3 I don't see taking the wear and tear , but something like a lexus or other premium brand, I could see doing it. However you are going to pay for that premium |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 6:41 pm · | |
| | Viper359 to Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 6:50 pm Don't get me wrong, I would love.to see a vehicle this easily replaceable. However I am sure there is lots of expenses not mentioned. Like 2 million miles on 1 driver seat. Not even the big rigs can do that. My fat ass would have destroyed the cushion |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 6:50 pm · | |
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AppleGuy Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 7:03 pm Don't get me wrong, I would love.to see a vehicle this easily replaceable. In China - many of the cabs get the batteries replaced daily. Faster than filing up your car with gas. Something like this needs to take hold with car manufactures - have easy battery replacements - even to recharge. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 7:03 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-3 7:12 pm Good point, I just don't see the big 4 or 6 putting 1 million miles quality in their vehicles anytime soon |
· actions · 2024-Aug-3 7:12 pm · | |
| mr weather | mr weather Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 7:54 am I’m sure the big automakers would love to see a subscription model (think leasing on steroids) where you effectively pay them for a car forever. |
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| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 7:54 am Didn't BMW do something like that for heated seats or something? |
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| mr weather | mr weather Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 7:56 am Yes but that’s more for unlocking specific features. |
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| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 8:04 am Gotcha thanks |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 8:04 am · | |
| markf | markf to Hydraglass Member 2024-Aug-4 3:57 pm Would you spend $35,000 to go 500,000km? That's all you really need to ask. It's cheaper than any new or used car out there on a cost per km basis. The point is, the rest of the car is good to go for millions of km - literally - it's over 2 million. How many ice cars even with half a dozen replacement engines in them could say or do that? The real question to ask is what value will the insurance company put on the vehicle with a new battery? What depreciation is there on the battery? If you spend even $20k on a battery, but the insurance company values your 600k km vehicle at $10k, it wouldn't take much of a knock to write it all off. There would have to be some accounting for this when it comes to insurance. My Model Y was recently backed into by the front light on the side while parked on the street. Looks like relatively little damage - just knock the metal back into shape, maybe a new bumper, new trim around the driver tire, check alignment and good to go. I didn't report it to the police because it had to be well under the $5000 limit. Got the quote back - it is going through insurance and the person who did it was very cooperative - but it's almost $6k. Apparently it's cheaper to replace the quarter panel than to fix it because aluminium is hard to work with and takes a lot of time - so an actual collision could easily lead to a 5 figure repair and a quick write off. I can't be confused with an EV skeptic, but I don't know if the economics of battery replacements work unless the insurance industry is playing ball with it - I personally would want the value and depreciation scale in writing before making that kind of investment. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 3:57 pm · | |
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Hydraglass Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 4:13 pm Would you spend $35,000 to go 500,000km? That's all you really need to ask. It's cheaper than any new or used car out there on a cost per km basis. The point is, the rest of the car is good to go for millions of km - literally - it's over 2 million. How many ice cars even with half a dozen replacement engines in them could say or do that? The real question to ask is what value will the insurance company put on the vehicle with a new battery? What depreciation is there on the battery? If you spend even $20k on a battery, but the insurance company values your 600k km vehicle at $10k, it wouldn't take much of a knock to write it all off. There would have to be some accounting for this when it comes to insurance. My Model Y was recently backed into by the front light on the side while parked on the street. Looks like relatively little damage - just knock the metal back into shape, maybe a new bumper, new trim around the driver tire, check alignment and good to go. I didn't report it to the police because it had to be well under the $5000 limit. Got the quote back - it is going through insurance and the person who did it was very cooperative - but it's almost $6k. Apparently it's cheaper to replace the quarter panel than to fix it because aluminium is hard to work with and takes a lot of time - so an actual collision could easily lead to a 5 figure repair and a quick write off. I can't be confused with an EV skeptic, but I don't know if the economics of battery replacements work unless the insurance industry is playing ball with it - I personally would want the value and depreciation scale in writing before making that kind of investment. I think you would be better off switching your insurance from standard auto policy to declared value policy when you do a battery replacement - give the car a declared value of the replacement pack plus the residual of the rest of the car as it would be had you not done the replacement - maybe $50,000. Same thing people use for custom trucks and restored classic cars and kit cars and the like. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 4:13 pm · | |
| Art | Art to Viper359 Member 2024-Aug-4 5:04 pm That's the thing though around here it would have long rotted away and of course the article mentions another battery that was borrowed so they don't count that And being an early model ass it's probably on its 10th suspension maybe 25th set of control arms and half shafts. The article is pure b******* |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 5:04 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 5:30 pm Yeah I agree. There is a tonne of hidden costs they don't mention. No vehicle goes a million miles and not even replace a suspension part |
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JTDavis to AR Member 2024-Aug-4 6:19 pm One of the earliest modern production EV's ever made. 2+ Million KM's. First GEN! But suspension cost tho. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 6:19 pm · | |
| Viper359 | Viper359 Premium Member 2024-Aug-4 6:29 pm No one is denying the vehicle did it. Some are questioning the longevity in Ontario specifically. Listen we had a farm truck go 430k. Almost every part on that thing had been replaced over the years, and we won't talk about the bondo. Since you bring up civic, I can pull an engine for 7k. Refurb for 12k. Hell of a lot cheaper than a 40k battery. That difference buys lots of gas. You are pro EV and that's fine, I am as well, but there is legitimate concerns. Also, since he wasn't charging at home, how much spent at expensive chargers. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 6:29 pm · | |
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JTDavis Member 2024-Aug-4 7:25 pm No one is denying the vehicle did it. Some are questioning the longevity in Ontario specifically. Maybe missing the forest for all the trees. This isn't the first passenger car to do 2 million KM. I think the record is over 4 million. What stands out is that the car that did 4 million KM was not the Ford Model T. Where as here we have a first gen car that is complained about as being "poor build quality" and not up to par! And some how, despite all odds it stumbles past 2 million KM for a cost that no other car has ever come close to. FYI original Model S cars had free supercharging. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-4 7:25 pm · | |
| dks01 | dks01 to AppleGuy Member 2024-Aug-5 7:36 am Don't get me wrong, I would love.to see a vehicle this easily replaceable. In China - many of the cabs get the batteries replaced daily. Faster than filing up your car with gas. Something like this needs to take hold with car manufactures - have easy battery replacements - even to recharge. When I worked in the Loblaws warehouse in Streetsville 50 years ago, we had lead acid battery powered fork lifts and pallet trucks. The batteries were changed daily, on the night shift. There were ere whole racks of batteries on charge in a special room in the warehouse. There were special hoists to remove the batteries and put new ones in. It was not the place for us summer student hires, though. |
· actions · 2024-Aug-5 7:36 am · | |
